Re: [FCP-L] Re: LG TruMotion 480Mhz LCD TV, etc??

120 Hz and 240 Hz make 24p originated material look horrible. They
render the images to look like interlaced video. I hate it.

DQS

Paul Darrigo wrote:
> That didn¹t tell us anything
>
>
> on 11/27/09 2:39 PM, jeffsengpiehl at jeffsengpiehl@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://bit.ly/65vgeI Take a looksee, should have all the info.
>>
>> --- In FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:FinalCutPro-L%40yahoogroups.com>
>> , James Culbertson <albion@...> wrote:
>>
>>>> So, now that I see 240MHz and 480MHz LCD TVs being announced...
>>>>
>>>> Someone remind me what the benefit of 120 MHz HDTVs are. And are even
>>>> higher MHz TVs just marketing hype like 1080p on a 26" LCD TV?
>>>>
>>>> Inquiring relatives want to know.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> James
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Sent via my mac
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
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Re: [FCP-L] Re: LG TruMotion 480Mhz LCD TV, etc??

That didn¹t tell us anything

on 11/27/09 2:39 PM, jeffsengpiehl at jeffsengpiehl@yahoo.com wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> http://bit.ly/65vgeI Take a looksee, should have all the info.
>
> --- In FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:FinalCutPro-L%40yahoogroups.com>
> , James Culbertson <albion@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > So, now that I see 240MHz and 480MHz LCD TVs being announced...
>> >
>> > Someone remind me what the benefit of 120 MHz HDTVs are. And are even
>> > higher MHz TVs just marketing hype like 1080p on a 26" LCD TV?
>> >
>> > Inquiring relatives want to know.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > James
>> >
>
>
>
>
>

--- Sent via my mac

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [FCP-L] Re: LG TruMotion 480Mhz LCD TV, etc??

Can't find any info there that answers my question. But thanks, Jeff.

Google finally pulled through:

http://gizmodo.com/231872/120hz-hdtvs-the-secret-to-making-movies-look-as-smooth-as-butter

"These new HDTVs avoid this awkward 3:2 pulldown process altogether by
changing their frame rate to something that's a multiple of 24 by
using either frame doubling or interpolation (also called "tweening").
Then, their playback can be as close to native 24fps playback as you
can get. That's why 72Hz (24 x 3 = 72) and 120Hz refresh rates are
gaining traction..."

So, I am guessing that 240 MHz and 480 MHz are not going to improve
anything over 120 MHz technology.

But if anyone knows anything different let me know.

Thanks,

James

On Nov 27, 2009, at 2:39 PM, jeffsengpiehl wrote:

> http://bit.ly/65vgeI Take a looksee, should have all the info.
>
> --- In FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com, James Culbertson <albion@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > So, now that I see 240MHz and 480MHz LCD TVs being announced...
> >
> > Someone remind me what the benefit of 120 MHz HDTVs are. And are
> even
> > higher MHz TVs just marketing hype like 1080p on a 26" LCD TV?
> >
> > Inquiring relatives want to know.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > James
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[FCP-L] Re: OT: Monitors

Jim,

> Jim Feeley wrote:
> To repeat, and perhaps trivially modify, my main point: good LCD screens can
> be acceptably sharp in non-native modes. At least, I'm able to spend
> 14-hour+ days working with images and text on a book,

I'm not questioning that you can find a setting on a monitor that works for you and so can others. Nor that some displays look better than others at non-native sizes. Nevertheless the issue is black-and-white when it comes to the physics. LCDs simply have one native resolution and an image is only optimized at that setting. Other sizes may be just fine, but will always look better at the native size.

Any image that does not match the native display resolution will be upscaled or downscaled to fit. Unlike a CRT which will scan differently to display the image. It simply gets down to each individual's tolerance levels. I've been in a lot of FCP suites with Apple 23" diplays set to 1650x1080 instead of their native 1920x1200 and for me personally, I find it impossible to use. But that's me, since obviously the other editors never saw a problem in the first place.

On a Mac, the quality of text also depends on what you have your text smoothing settings at. And the perception will also very with the contrast abilities and the brightness level of the monitor.

Veerly even more OT ... All that being said, it gets even wonkier when you talk about LCDs and the broadcast image. I have a Samsung 1080p TV at home, being fed over HDMI from a Scientific Atlanta HD cable box. The box is set to display everything natively at the incoming resolution. When I have compared native 1080i versus a forced cross-conversion to 720p by the box, quite frankly I see no difference at all. Same for the 720p channels versus the 1080i channels. Go figure!

Cheers,
Oliver

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[FCP-L] Re: OT: Monitors

> larryasbell wrote:
> My point really was to help spell out what it seemed Bob and
> Oliver were trying to say about getting the right monitor for
> going easy on the eyes.

And I thought you did a better job than I did, for sure!

- Oliver

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[FCP-L] Re: OT: Monitors

--- In FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com, Jim Feeley <jfeeley@...> wrote:
> some data analysis stuff I gotta do (mainly Python and R for people who
> care)

Yeah! Rock on! At the risk of (briefly) being very OT, it's stunning that an app like R is _free_ (i.e., an implementation of the S language, like S-Plus, used to run thousands of dollars).

To add one more (final, for me) note on this issue, as it is very relevant if off-topic.

There is a condition called "Computer Vision Syndrome":

http://www.google.com/search?q=computer+vision+syndrome

Consulting an opthamalogist once a year is probably a good idea.

On the gear side of things, of non-Apple monitors, I prefer NEC and Sony.

Also, monitor stands can be _very_ handy:

http://www.ergotron.com/Products/DeskMounts/tabid/71/Default.aspx

I've got some LX units and they're great (I bolt them to the desk to remove any chance of things sliding).

Finally, as I haven't noticed any mention about Cintiq monitor/tablets yet...I picked up one and, while not perfect, I really like the ability to "write" on the screen. When dealing with computers, along with eyestrain, there's wrist and neck strain too! ;-) The Cintiq seems to make things more...and I hate putting it this way..."natural", which also seems to reduce stress.

Bert Monroy uses 'em:

http://www.bertmonroy.com/

http://www.bertmonroy.com/fineart/text/fineart_damen.htm

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[FCP-L] Re: LG TruMotion 480Mhz LCD TV, etc??

http://bit.ly/65vgeI Take a looksee, should have all the info.

--- In FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com, James Culbertson <albion@...> wrote:
>
> So, now that I see 240MHz and 480MHz LCD TVs being announced...
>
> Someone remind me what the benefit of 120 MHz HDTVs are. And are even
> higher MHz TVs just marketing hype like 1080p on a 26" LCD TV?
>
> Inquiring relatives want to know.
>
> Thanks,
>
> James
>

------------------------------------

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[FCP-L] LG TruMotion 480Mhz LCD TV, etc??

So, now that I see 240MHz and 480MHz LCD TVs being announced...

Someone remind me what the benefit of 120 MHz HDTVs are. And are even
higher MHz TVs just marketing hype like 1080p on a 26" LCD TV?

Inquiring relatives want to know.

Thanks,

James

------------------------------------

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Re: [FCP-L] Re: OT: Monitors

Maybe I've been getting lucky, or maybe there are just a few non-native
resolutions that work out well. Earlier in this thread Jeff mentioned that
he found 1920x1200 to be OK on a 30-inch Dell screen, so I'm not the only
one.

A few things I will agree with (and/or posit to move the conversation
forward):

*There's a lot of subjectivity in all this.

*Better LCD screens probably give a little more leeway in producing
non-native resolutions with acceptable sharpness. (Just one reason I stay
away from bargain-basement monitors).

*If you are thinking of running a monitor at a non-native resolution, it
makes sense to find a dealer or friend or some place with the monitor you're
considering and try it out at that non-native resolution. And with the apps
you intend to mainly use on that monitor so you can see how those interfaces
work for you. Or at least buy from a place that allows for easy and
inexpensive exchanges and returns... Then you'll know if a particular
monitor and resolution will work for you.

*Maybe I have superman eyes.*

No worries

Jim
*Alas, I don't.

On 11/27/09 12:56 PM, "larryasbell" <larry@LAEditing.com> wrote:

> Jim -
>
> Good point, I haven't observed that myself but maybe I should take another
> look.
>
> My point really was to help spell out what it seemed Bob and Oliver were
> trying to say about getting the right monitor for going easy on the eyes.
>
> I presumed that those who said "I got a bigger monitor but the type is even
> smaller" were also trying to keep their LDCs at the native resolution. But
> maybe they should try lowering the display size setting and see if they find
> it acceptable, as you did.
>
> - Larry Asbell
>
> --- In FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com, Jim Feeley <jfeeley@...> wrote:
>>
>> On 11/26/09 6:06 PM, "larryasbell" <larry@...> wrote:
>>
>>> An LCD only looks sharp at it's native resolution, so you don't want to
>>> adjust
>>> the display resolution as the way to get bigger system type.
>>
>> Larry, the LCDs I own look plenty sharp at various resolutions (and I just
>> checked on two different 24-inch monitors to reconfirm). Yes, they may be
>> "hypersharp" in native resolution. But mine are sharp enough for super-long
>> days of work (with adequate breaks) at non-native resolutions.
>>
>> If the LCD screens you work with aren't sharp at non-native resolution,
>> perhaps you need better monitors (or maybe better cables, or something).
>>
>>
>> Jim
>> --
>> Jim Feeley
>> POV Media
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To learn more about the FinalCutPro-L group, please visit
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>
>
>

--
Jim Feeley
POV Media

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Re: [FCP-L] Re: OT: Monitors

On 11/27/09 11:26 AM, "oliverpetersvidy" <oliverpeters@oliverpeters.com>
wrote:

> Jim,
>
>> If the LCD screens you work with aren't sharp at non-native resolution,
>> perhaps you need better monitors (or maybe better cables, or something).
>> Jim Feeley
>
> I disagree. I think it's really a subjective issue. They are either sharp or
> they aren't. Lower quality monitors often don't look as sharp at their native
> resolutions compared to better ones, even if the specs are the same. As such,
> the difference between native and a close non-native setting (on a cheap
> monitor) might not be that much different. It really depends on your personal
> perception of sharp and not sharp. When I look at a high-quality Dell versus
> an Apple Cinema - both at the same size and native resolution - I feel the
> Apple looks slightly crisper.

For me the issue isn't black and white...It's 24-bit. Nyuk nyuk. I have a
24-inch Dell, a Apple 24-inch, and a couple other monitors in front of (or
to the side of) me. These are decent "top of the line, but not stupidly
overpriced" LCD monitors. And all are perfectly acceptable as computer
monitors...at least, they are since I exchanged the the large Apple monitor
that became pretty crappy (and luckily purchased with AppleCare).

To repeat, and perhaps trivially modify, my main point: good LCD screens can
be acceptably sharp in non-native modes. At least, I'm able to spend
14-hour+ days working with images and text on a book, modify some code for
some data analysis stuff I gotta do (mainly Python and R for people who
care) that results in tons of kinda tiny lines of code, and work with apps
like AE, FCP, MC, etc...without undue eye strain.

Jim

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[FCP-L] Re: OT: Monitors

Jim -

Good point, I haven't observed that myself but maybe I should take another look.

My point really was to help spell out what it seemed Bob and Oliver were trying to say about getting the right monitor for going easy on the eyes.

I presumed that those who said "I got a bigger monitor but the type is even smaller" were also trying to keep their LDCs at the native resolution. But maybe they should try lowering the display size setting and see if they find it acceptable, as you did.

- Larry Asbell

--- In FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com, Jim Feeley <jfeeley@...> wrote:
>
> On 11/26/09 6:06 PM, "larryasbell" <larry@...> wrote:
>
> > An LCD only looks sharp at it's native resolution, so you don't want to adjust
> > the display resolution as the way to get bigger system type.
>
> Larry, the LCDs I own look plenty sharp at various resolutions (and I just
> checked on two different 24-inch monitors to reconfirm). Yes, they may be
> "hypersharp" in native resolution. But mine are sharp enough for super-long
> days of work (with adequate breaks) at non-native resolutions.
>
> If the LCD screens you work with aren't sharp at non-native resolution,
> perhaps you need better monitors (or maybe better cables, or something).
>
>
> Jim
> --
> Jim Feeley
> POV Media
>

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[FCP-L] Re: OT: Monitors

Jim,

> If the LCD screens you work with aren't sharp at non-native resolution,
> perhaps you need better monitors (or maybe better cables, or something).
> Jim Feeley

I disagree. I think it's really a subjective issue. They are either sharp or they aren't. Lower quality monitors often don't look as sharp at their native resolutions compared to better ones, even if the specs are the same. As such, the difference between native and a close non-native setting (on a cheap monitor) might not be that much different. It really depends on your personal perception of sharp and not sharp. When I look at a high-quality Dell versus an Apple Cinema - both at the same size and native resolution - I feel the Apple looks slightly crisper.

- Oliver

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Re: [FCP-L] Re: OT: Monitors

On 11/26/09 6:06 PM, "larryasbell" <larry@LAEditing.com> wrote:

> An LCD only looks sharp at it's native resolution, so you don't want to adjust
> the display resolution as the way to get bigger system type.

Larry, the LCDs I own look plenty sharp at various resolutions (and I just
checked on two different 24-inch monitors to reconfirm). Yes, they may be
"hypersharp" in native resolution. But mine are sharp enough for super-long
days of work (with adequate breaks) at non-native resolutions.

If the LCD screens you work with aren't sharp at non-native resolution,
perhaps you need better monitors (or maybe better cables, or something).

Jim
--
Jim Feeley
POV Media

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