FCP-L

Thursday, December 10, 2009

Re: [FCP-L] OT: How did they do "digital effects" in the analouge era?

Oh no the original ADO 3000 did not do a page turn. That was the big cool thing on the Abekas A-53 although it took two channels front and back and the combiner if you wanted to bring it in as a single source, or you could do two keys on the switcher maintaining priority of back over front. I never used the latter ADO 2000 and 1000 perhaps they added that feature. For the ADO you could put in some magic numbers with excessive perspective and get a page bend/twist but they were not very fun to modify. Who remembers the good ole "Shwip Shwap" move on the coveted ADO magic moves disk. Took me a year before I found the right story to use it on. Midnight Aerobics just needed that extra something the shwip shwap delivered. All that video goodness for only $180,000 per channel combiner not included. The 5 volt 200 amp power supply weighed as much as my 66 VW bug.

--- In FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com, Donnie Rogers <donnie@...> wrote:
>
> Do a google for Ampex ADO, or Grass Valley Kaleidoscope.
> And a room full of videotape machines.
>
>
> Donnie Rogers
> VP of Technology
> Grass Roots Media, Inc.
> 574-289-8437 Office
> 574-250-0155 Mobile
> donnie@...
>
> On Dec 10, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Tom Wolsky wrote:
>
> > There has a page peel on most linear switchers for years.
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > On Dec 10, 2009, at 11:50 AM, Sune Alexandersen wrote:
> >
> > > Hi group!
> > > I'm watching an old Norwegian tv-serie made in 1979 and the opening
> > > title made me think: how on earth did they achieve the page-turn
> > > transition before.. Eh... Fcp/Avid.. Everything!!
> > > They used a lot of effects in the good old days that is a simple
> > drag
> > > and drop operation these days..
> > >
> > > Hope some of you with the proper mileage could shed some light on
> > the
> > > issue!
> > >
> > > Regards from rainy Norway,
> > > Sune Alexandersen
> > > Sent whilst on the go!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > To learn more about the FinalCutPro-L group, please visit
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FinalCutPro-LYahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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[FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

> Dom Q. Silverio wrote:
> ProRes for us is also a nightmare for long
> form edits. This is offline editing - meaning
> hundreds of hours of footage in shared storage.

That's why Apple came up with ProRes (Prxy) and ProRes (LT).

- Oliver

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[FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

The trouble with these long-GOP formats in FCP is that they don't mix well with other codecs. If you have a native timeline of EX or HDV and that's your only media and all the media and timeline settings match, then it's pretty easy. It's when you mix up codecs that you have issues. For instance, 25Mbps HDV + HDCAM captures is an uncompressed timeline.

- Oliver

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Re: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

ProRes for us is also a nightmare for long form edits. This is offline
editing - meaning hundreds of hours of footage in shared storage. DVC
Pro HD was the only workable format but would still hiccup once in a
while when handling large photos. It is just hitting the 2.5GB memory
limit way too fast.

Of course for online where you only have 1 or 2 hours of footage
XDCAM, ProRes and DVC Pro HD is not a problem.

Dom Q. Silverio

On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 2:31 PM, Shane Ross <comeback@mac.com> wrote:
> Yup...same issue here. But ours was a NIGHTMARE where XDCAM EX was
> just one part. We had 9 other formats. But as soon as I changed the
> sequence settings away from native XDCAM to ProRes (yes, you have to
> render EVERYTHING when you are done), the crashes all but stopped.
>
> Log GOP MPEG on long form is nasty.
>
> IN the end it turned out fine. Went from 4 crashes a day (bringing
> back awful flashbacks of Adrenaline days) to 1 every 3 days. We
> didn't transcode XDCAM to ProRes...that would take WAY too long. Just
> used that sequence setting.
>
> So I am biased towards DVCPRO HD as it is do darn easy to edit...even
> on a G4 Powerbook! G5 Tower! That no matter how good XDCAM looks...
> dealing with it in post (where I hang my hat) is NOT fun. So when I
> am asked what formats/cameras I recommend... DVCPRO HD,
> AVCIntra...P2...is always on the top of the list.
>
> -shane
>
> On Dec 10, 2009, at 9:12 AM, Dom Q. Silverio wrote:
>
>> That too is my experience with EX footage with long form editing in
>> FCP 6 or 7. Tremendous amount of crashes and longer processing time
>> (renders, exports, etc) compared to DVC Pro HD. It requires too much
>> memory to process.
>>
>> Dom Q. Silverio
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 12:00 PM, r_salsbury
>> <synchro@syncretist.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I was gonna just let this go by, but since it's turned to a bigger
>> discussion, I'll mention that I've worked at 2 separate facilities
>> where XDCAM EX (1080/23.98) footage was a real hassle to work with
>> in FCP. Technically, it's just supposed to work as a native editing
>> format, but it drove folks a little crazy at both places. FCP 7 is
>> much better with it than 6, but for the shows I've been cutting,
>> it's not seamless. That translates to half hour or hour long shows.
>> >
>> > We were seeing lots of green frames, weird sync stuff, crashes way
>> more often than normal, and exports both self contained and
>> reference took forever. Like, 20 mins for a 30 minute sequence, with
>> a huge fibrechannel SAN as the backbone. Drives were not the
>> bottleneck.
>> >
>> > The current series I'm cutting for is shooting with these cameras
>> (I think the cheaper one), and after mighty amounts of
>> troubleshooting, we decided to transcode EVERYTHING that had been
>> shot thus far over to ProRes LT. Things have gotten so much better -
>> those self contained exports are down to about 3 or 4 minutes, and
>> no crashes.
>> >
>> > I like the way the footage looks, and would encourage folks to
>> check the cameras out, but not without trying to road test a project
>> the same size you'll really be working with.
>> >
>> > I'll also add that the assistants are impressed with how quick we
>> can load and integrate new material, even with the step of
>> transcoding from XD to ProRes, so there are speed advantages to the
>> format apparently.
>> >
>> > Anyway, my 2 cents.
>> >
>> >
>> > -Robert
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com, David Dodson
>> <davidadodson@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Now we're finally getting to the nut of what I was trying to
>> unearth.
>> >>
>> >> So when shooting with the EX1R's long GOP MPEG2s you have to copy
>> the card contents to a drive and THEN transcode/rewrap the material
>> to (ProRes?) for cutting?
>> >>
>> >> And more critically, is this a real-time or longer-than-real time
>> process? And if not, how long?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >>
>> >> David
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > To learn more about the FinalCutPro-L group, please visit
>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FinalCutPro-LYahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To learn more about the FinalCutPro-L group, please visit
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FinalCutPro-LYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

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Re: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

Yup...same issue here. But ours was a NIGHTMARE where XDCAM EX was
just one part. We had 9 other formats. But as soon as I changed the
sequence settings away from native XDCAM to ProRes (yes, you have to
render EVERYTHING when you are done), the crashes all but stopped.

Log GOP MPEG on long form is nasty.

IN the end it turned out fine. Went from 4 crashes a day (bringing
back awful flashbacks of Adrenaline days) to 1 every 3 days. We
didn't transcode XDCAM to ProRes...that would take WAY too long. Just
used that sequence setting.

So I am biased towards DVCPRO HD as it is do darn easy to edit...even
on a G4 Powerbook! G5 Tower! That no matter how good XDCAM looks...
dealing with it in post (where I hang my hat) is NOT fun. So when I
am asked what formats/cameras I recommend... DVCPRO HD,
AVCIntra...P2...is always on the top of the list.

-shane

On Dec 10, 2009, at 9:12 AM, Dom Q. Silverio wrote:

> That too is my experience with EX footage with long form editing in
> FCP 6 or 7. Tremendous amount of crashes and longer processing time
> (renders, exports, etc) compared to DVC Pro HD. It requires too much
> memory to process.
>
> Dom Q. Silverio
>
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 12:00 PM, r_salsbury
> <synchro@syncretist.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I was gonna just let this go by, but since it's turned to a bigger
> discussion, I'll mention that I've worked at 2 separate facilities
> where XDCAM EX (1080/23.98) footage was a real hassle to work with
> in FCP. Technically, it's just supposed to work as a native editing
> format, but it drove folks a little crazy at both places. FCP 7 is
> much better with it than 6, but for the shows I've been cutting,
> it's not seamless. That translates to half hour or hour long shows.
> >
> > We were seeing lots of green frames, weird sync stuff, crashes way
> more often than normal, and exports both self contained and
> reference took forever. Like, 20 mins for a 30 minute sequence, with
> a huge fibrechannel SAN as the backbone. Drives were not the
> bottleneck.
> >
> > The current series I'm cutting for is shooting with these cameras
> (I think the cheaper one), and after mighty amounts of
> troubleshooting, we decided to transcode EVERYTHING that had been
> shot thus far over to ProRes LT. Things have gotten so much better -
> those self contained exports are down to about 3 or 4 minutes, and
> no crashes.
> >
> > I like the way the footage looks, and would encourage folks to
> check the cameras out, but not without trying to road test a project
> the same size you'll really be working with.
> >
> > I'll also add that the assistants are impressed with how quick we
> can load and integrate new material, even with the step of
> transcoding from XD to ProRes, so there are speed advantages to the
> format apparently.
> >
> > Anyway, my 2 cents.
> >
> >
> > -Robert
> >
> >
> > --- In FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com, David Dodson
> <davidadodson@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Now we're finally getting to the nut of what I was trying to
> unearth.
> >>
> >> So when shooting with the EX1R's long GOP MPEG2s you have to copy
> the card contents to a drive and THEN transcode/rewrap the material
> to (ProRes?) for cutting?
> >>
> >> And more critically, is this a real-time or longer-than-real time
> process? And if not, how long?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > To learn more about the FinalCutPro-L group, please visit
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FinalCutPro-LYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

On Dec 10, 2009, at 9:39 AM, r_salsbury wrote:

>
>
>
> We looked at transcoding to DVCPro as I like working with that quite
> a bit...there was a slight color shift, mostly in the highlights,
> whereas transcoding to ProResLT was indistinguishable to the eye on
> good monitors. I think our post facility saw a difference on the
> scopes, but it was close enough to not be a real issue.

Plus if you transcode to DVCPRO HD you throw away almost half of your
horizontal image quality - EX at 35 mbit/sec is full raster 1920 x
1080; DVCPRO HD is only 1280 x 1080 (60 Hz based formats) - 1/3 of
your horizontal data is simply obliterated, never to return.

Philip

Philip Hodgetts
President, Intelligent Assistance
AssistedEditing.com Fast First Cuts, Metadata Worfklows
Big Brains for Rent bigbrainsforrent.com
HD Survival Handbook 2009-2010
The New Now - Grow your business - ProAppsTips.com

Personal Blog http://philiphodgetts.com
Cell 818 335 3916

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Re: [FCP-L] OT: How did they do "digital effects" in the analouge era?

There was a number hack in ADO for creating a page turn which appeared to
twist the page as it moved off the screen, but the original ADO didn't
actually do curved surfaces. Quantel was nice but out of reach financially
for a lot of operations. Abekas A53D had a nice page roll and, with a
combiner for multiple channels, you could do it in one pass. Otherwise, you
would lay off your backside pass over superblack to tape machine, and key
that along with the frontside.

----
John Heiser
o2ideas
birmingham, alabama, USA

On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Marilyn Heiss <mdivah@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> As far as I know--and I am one of the editors of "mature" vintage on
> this list -- it was a Quantel product that had the first page turns
> for tape post. It might have been the Quantel 5000, or maybe page
> turns came in with the Mirage, which is the box that brought in the
> shattering glass effect, among others. I know the first Quantel boxes
> that came into our edit suites at NBC NY were 2D, then one suite got
> the multi-channel Quantel and another got the Mirage. When ADO came
> into the picture in all suites, page turns became the transition of
> choice among many producers--they wanted to use them for everything....
>
> I cut a lot of news pieces on economic issues--lots of words with
> little video and a lot of graphic representations--in a linear room
> using a Grass Valley 1600 switcher and a one-channel 2D Quantel. So
> many passes, so many hours to put together something that, as you say,
> is now much simpler.
>
> Marilyn
>
>
> On Dec 10, 2009, at 8:50 AM, Sune Alexandersen wrote:
>
> > Hi group!
> > I'm watching an old Norwegian tv-serie made in 1979 and the opening
> > title made me think: how on earth did they achieve the page-turn
> > transition before.. Eh... Fcp/Avid.. Everything!!
> > They used a lot of effects in the good old days that is a simple drag
> > and drop operation these days..
> >
> > Hope some of you with the proper mileage could shed some light on the
> > issue!
> >
> > Regards from rainy Norway,
> > Sune Alexandersen
> > Sent whilst on the go!
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
>
> >
> > To learn more about the FinalCutPro-L group, please visit
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FinalCutPro-LYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

We looked at transcoding to DVCPro as I like working with that quite a bit...there was a slight color shift, mostly in the highlights, whereas transcoding to ProResLT was indistinguishable to the eye on good monitors. I think our post facility saw a difference on the scopes, but it was close enough to not be a real issue.

--- In FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com, "Dom Q. Silverio" <domqsilverio@...> wrote:
>
> That too is my experience with EX footage with long form editing in
> FCP 6 or 7. Tremendous amount of crashes and longer processing time
> (renders, exports, etc) compared to DVC Pro HD. It requires too much
> memory to process.
>
>
>
>
> Dom Q. Silverio
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 12:00 PM, r_salsbury <synchro@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I was gonna just let this go by, but since it's turned to a bigger discussion, I'll mention that I've worked at 2 separate facilities where XDCAM EX (1080/23.98) footage was a real hassle to work with in FCP. Technically, it's just supposed to work as a native editing format, but it drove folks a little crazy at both places. FCP 7 is much better with it than 6, but for the shows I've been cutting, it's not seamless. That translates to half hour or hour long shows.
> >
> > We were seeing lots of green frames, weird sync stuff, crashes way more often than normal, and exports both self contained and reference took forever. Like, 20 mins for a 30 minute sequence, with a huge fibrechannel SAN as the backbone. Drives were not the bottleneck.
> >
> > The current series I'm cutting for is shooting with these cameras (I think the cheaper one), and after mighty amounts of troubleshooting, we decided to transcode EVERYTHING that had been shot thus far over to ProRes LT. Things have gotten so much better - those self contained exports are down to about 3 or 4 minutes, and no crashes.
> >
> > I like the way the footage looks, and would encourage folks to check the cameras out, but not without trying to road test a project the same size you'll really be working with.
> >
> > I'll also add that the assistants are impressed with how quick we can load and integrate new material, even with the step of transcoding from XD to ProRes, so there are speed advantages to the format apparently.
> >
> > Anyway, my 2 cents.
> >
> >
> > -Robert
> >
> >
> > --- In FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com, David Dodson <davidadodson@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Now we're finally getting to the nut of what I was trying to unearth.
> >>
> >> So when shooting with the EX1R's long GOP MPEG2s you have to copy the card contents to a drive and THEN transcode/rewrap the material to (ProRes?) for cutting?
> >>
> >> And more critically, is this a real-time or longer-than-real time process? And if not, how long?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > To learn more about the FinalCutPro-L group, please visit
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FinalCutPro-LYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

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Re: [FCP-L] OT: How did they do "digital effects" in the analouge era?

As far as I know--and I am one of the editors of "mature" vintage on
this list -- it was a Quantel product that had the first page turns
for tape post. It might have been the Quantel 5000, or maybe page
turns came in with the Mirage, which is the box that brought in the
shattering glass effect, among others. I know the first Quantel boxes
that came into our edit suites at NBC NY were 2D, then one suite got
the multi-channel Quantel and another got the Mirage. When ADO came
into the picture in all suites, page turns became the transition of
choice among many producers--they wanted to use them for everything....

I cut a lot of news pieces on economic issues--lots of words with
little video and a lot of graphic representations--in a linear room
using a Grass Valley 1600 switcher and a one-channel 2D Quantel. So
many passes, so many hours to put together something that, as you say,
is now much simpler.

Marilyn

On Dec 10, 2009, at 8:50 AM, Sune Alexandersen wrote:

> Hi group!
> I'm watching an old Norwegian tv-serie made in 1979 and the opening
> title made me think: how on earth did they achieve the page-turn
> transition before.. Eh... Fcp/Avid.. Everything!!
> They used a lot of effects in the good old days that is a simple drag
> and drop operation these days..
>
> Hope some of you with the proper mileage could shed some light on the
> issue!
>
> Regards from rainy Norway,
> Sune Alexandersen
> Sent whilst on the go!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To learn more about the FinalCutPro-L group, please visit
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FinalCutPro-LYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

------------------------------------

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Re: [FCP-L] OT: How did they do "digital effects" in the analouge era?

Do a google for Ampex ADO, or Grass Valley Kaleidoscope.
And a room full of videotape machines.

Donnie Rogers
VP of Technology
Grass Roots Media, Inc.
574-289-8437 Office
574-250-0155 Mobile
donnie@grassrootsmedia.net

On Dec 10, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Tom Wolsky wrote:

> There has a page peel on most linear switchers for years.
>
> All the best,
>
> Tom
>
> On Dec 10, 2009, at 11:50 AM, Sune Alexandersen wrote:
>
> > Hi group!
> > I'm watching an old Norwegian tv-serie made in 1979 and the opening
> > title made me think: how on earth did they achieve the page-turn
> > transition before.. Eh... Fcp/Avid.. Everything!!
> > They used a lot of effects in the good old days that is a simple
> drag
> > and drop operation these days..
> >
> > Hope some of you with the proper mileage could shed some light on
> the
> > issue!
> >
> > Regards from rainy Norway,
> > Sune Alexandersen
> > Sent whilst on the go!
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > To learn more about the FinalCutPro-L group, please visit
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FinalCutPro-LYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

That too is my experience with EX footage with long form editing in
FCP 6 or 7. Tremendous amount of crashes and longer processing time
(renders, exports, etc) compared to DVC Pro HD. It requires too much
memory to process.

Dom Q. Silverio

On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 12:00 PM, r_salsbury <synchro@syncretist.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I was gonna just let this go by, but since it's turned to a bigger discussion, I'll mention that I've worked at 2 separate facilities where XDCAM EX (1080/23.98) footage was a real hassle to work with in FCP. Technically, it's just supposed to work as a native editing format, but it drove folks a little crazy at both places. FCP 7 is much better with it than 6, but for the shows I've been cutting, it's not seamless. That translates to half hour or hour long shows.
>
> We were seeing lots of green frames, weird sync stuff, crashes way more often than normal, and exports both self contained and reference took forever. Like, 20 mins for a 30 minute sequence, with a huge fibrechannel SAN as the backbone. Drives were not the bottleneck.
>
> The current series I'm cutting for is shooting with these cameras (I think the cheaper one), and after mighty amounts of troubleshooting, we decided to transcode EVERYTHING that had been shot thus far over to ProRes LT. Things have gotten so much better - those self contained exports are down to about 3 or 4 minutes, and no crashes.
>
> I like the way the footage looks, and would encourage folks to check the cameras out, but not without trying to road test a project the same size you'll really be working with.
>
> I'll also add that the assistants are impressed with how quick we can load and integrate new material, even with the step of transcoding from XD to ProRes, so there are speed advantages to the format apparently.
>
> Anyway, my 2 cents.
>
>
> -Robert
>
>
> --- In FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com, David Dodson <davidadodson@...> wrote:
>>
>> Now we're finally getting to the nut of what I was trying to unearth.
>>
>> So when shooting with the EX1R's long GOP MPEG2s you have to copy the card contents to a drive and THEN transcode/rewrap the material to (ProRes?) for cutting?
>>
>> And more critically, is this a real-time or longer-than-real time process? And if not, how long?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> David
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To learn more about the FinalCutPro-L group, please visit
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FinalCutPro-LYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

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[FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

I was gonna just let this go by, but since it's turned to a bigger discussion, I'll mention that I've worked at 2 separate facilities where XDCAM EX (1080/23.98) footage was a real hassle to work with in FCP. Technically, it's just supposed to work as a native editing format, but it drove folks a little crazy at both places. FCP 7 is much better with it than 6, but for the shows I've been cutting, it's not seamless. That translates to half hour or hour long shows.

We were seeing lots of green frames, weird sync stuff, crashes way more often than normal, and exports both self contained and reference took forever. Like, 20 mins for a 30 minute sequence, with a huge fibrechannel SAN as the backbone. Drives were not the bottleneck.

The current series I'm cutting for is shooting with these cameras (I think the cheaper one), and after mighty amounts of troubleshooting, we decided to transcode EVERYTHING that had been shot thus far over to ProRes LT. Things have gotten so much better - those self contained exports are down to about 3 or 4 minutes, and no crashes.

I like the way the footage looks, and would encourage folks to check the cameras out, but not without trying to road test a project the same size you'll really be working with.

I'll also add that the assistants are impressed with how quick we can load and integrate new material, even with the step of transcoding from XD to ProRes, so there are speed advantages to the format apparently.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

-Robert

--- In FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com, David Dodson <davidadodson@...> wrote:
>
> Now we're finally getting to the nut of what I was trying to unearth.
>
> So when shooting with the EX1R's long GOP MPEG2s you have to copy the card contents to a drive and THEN transcode/rewrap the material to (ProRes?) for cutting?
>
> And more critically, is this a real-time or longer-than-real time process? And if not, how long?
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>

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Re: [FCP-L] OT: How did they do "digital effects" in the analouge era?

There has a page peel on most linear switchers for years.

All the best,

Tom

On Dec 10, 2009, at 11:50 AM, Sune Alexandersen wrote:

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[FCP-L] OT: How did they do "digital effects" in the analouge era?

Hi group!
I'm watching an old Norwegian tv-serie made in 1979 and the opening
title made me think: how on earth did they achieve the page-turn
transition before.. Eh... Fcp/Avid.. Everything!!
They used a lot of effects in the good old days that is a simple drag
and drop operation these days..

Hope some of you with the proper mileage could shed some light on the
issue!

Regards from rainy Norway,
Sune Alexandersen
Sent whilst on the go!

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Re: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

I'll weigh in here as an EX-1 owner. Caveat: I'm not as technically savvy as
others that I've read on the list. I am a producer and come from the old
school SD world (can you say 90's?) and have just gotten back into shooting
and editing.

First off, it's HD so any comparison to SD capture time is silly to me.
Transfer time from card to disk is about 4:1. I transferred a full card shot
at 720P (28 minutes) in 7 minutes yesterday (same transfer time for 1080
because it's just data, right?) Conversion time inside FCP for the same 28
minutes was maybe another 4 or 5 minutes. So I'm still at least 2:1 for
ingest. And it's HD. So, I have 2:1 ingest for much hogher quality than SD,
so no comparison there.

I have never had a video consumer watching on screen or online say anything
but "wow!" The online stuff I upload looks much better than what I see
currently on ANY cable channel. By the time they get your material and
re-compress it looks like a bad VHS dub. I totally get the technical
discuussion. I have one thing to say to that: Step away from the spec sheet
and test equipment. YOU may know that the picture quality could be better
coming from another camera but the video consumer doesn't care. To them if
it looks good it is good.

My sequences are all ProRes and for what I do (corporate typically going
online) the material edits well and looks good. And it's HD.

Attached lens? A cost/benefit tradeoff. I actually haven't taken advantage
of all the set up the camera offers. I don't use undercrank/overcrank so I
can't comment.

It's too small and not massy enough to hand hold well like an old timey Ike
or Sony. For critical hand holding I use a Spider Brace. I have a set of
rails but haven't invetsed in a matte box, handles, etc. I have no need for
something like a Letus adapter. This is not a TV camera. It's an HD video
camera in a form factor more like a smaller Arriflex. I think of it like a
film camera.

I have shot with the JVC GY-HM100, little brother to the 700. It looks like
a consumer camera. It's easy to handhold and you look like a tourist.
Granted the 700 has a removable lense but so does the EX-3. The "just drag
and drop the files" claim from JVC is not without it's set up. Without the
right QT components it's a pain. And it's still an MPG inside the MOV file.

And there's a the price. For an HD camera. That shoots and looks like a film
camera. I wouldn't shoot features with it. I don't how it blows up to a
large screen. That seems like a function of the digital projector. I don't
care whether the chips are full frame or not. It's HD. For less than good SD
or HDV was 5 years ago.

Unless you're into the whole Sony/Panasonic/JVC/... holy war I would
recommend the EX-1 or EX-1R or EX-3 (R coming soon?) to anyone trying to
"navigate the fast-moving waters of pro and prosumer cameras."

Cheers!

Todd O'Neill
Managing Director
DoingMedia LLC
www.doingmedia.net
San Antonio, TX

LinkedIn: toddoneill | FaceBook: Todd O'Neill | Twitter: doingmedia |
doingmedia.blip.tv

On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 4:29 AM, Rupert Watson <rupert@root6.com> wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

Now we're finally getting to the nut of what I was trying to unearth.

So when shooting with the EX1R's long GOP MPEG2s you have to copy the card contents to a drive and THEN transcode/rewrap the material to (ProRes?) for cutting?

And more critically, is this a real-time or longer-than-real time process? And if not, how long?

Thanks,

David

David Dodson
davidadodson@sbcglobal.net
818-541-1225
818-523-0905 mobile

________________________________
From: Rupert Watson <rupert@root6.com>
To: FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 10, 2009 2:29:29 AM
Subject: RE: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

Shane

If you have a PXU-MS240 you can download from SxS card to disk in the
field and attach the disk via e-SATA. The hard disks are swappable and
the unit runs off the same batteries as the camera.

I thought it was just a re-wrap to access Sony MXF long GOP media on FCP
?

The Nano flash web site says;

Selectable Quality / Record Rates

* Master Quality - I-Frame Only : 160/220 Mbps 4:2:2 I-Frame
Full-Raster
* Master Quality - Long GOP : 100/140/160 Mbps 4:2:2 Long-GOP
Full-Raster
* Broadcast TV Mode: 50 Mbps 4:2:2 Long-GOP Full-Raster
* Proxy Mode: 19 Mbps 4:2:0 Long-GOP 1440x1080

So it appears they support both.

And they claim

Near Universal NLE Support

* Final Cut Pro: All Quicktime files
* Avid Media Composer: All I-Frame MXF files, 35/50 Mbit Long-GOP
MXF files
* Edius: All MXF files
* Matrox Axio: All MXF files
* Vegas: All MXF files
* Premiere CS3/CS4: now supports all MXF files, with Main Concept
MPEG Pro XDCAM

And as the flash cards are cheaper I know of at least one production
company who are considering using them like tape and not offloading in
the field; just keeping the cards like they used to do with rushes
tapes.

Avid have created AMA so that you don't need to ingest the SxS, P2 or
GXF media from cameras at all; you can just edit it from a virtual
volume (folder copied from the camera media. I wonder how long it will
be before we see the same functionality in FCP?

Rupert Watson

+44 7787 554 801

www.root6.com

From: FinalCutPro- L@yahoogroups. com
[mailto:FinalCutPro- L@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Shane Ross
Sent: 10 December 2009 09:03
To: FinalCutPro- L@yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

On Dec 10, 2009, at 12:10 AM, Rupert Watson wrote:

> If you are going to render to another i-frame codec for editing then
> why
> care if the acquisition codec is long gop mpeg2 of i-frame H.264?

Conversion time. Longer than it takes to capture a tape. I have to
ingest, THEN convert.
But if they shoot to the KiPro...I'd be a happy clam! Even to that
Nano-Flash, that shoots I-Frame MPEG-2 (odd but true) is better.

I like the images the EX series puts out...don't get me wrong. The OP
asked for alternatives, so I provided some. The BIG drawback to the
alternatives is the cost of the tapeless medium. Making it so that
you MUST offload in the field so you can reuse the cards. That can be
a task an a half!

-shane

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RE: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

Shane

If you have a PXU-MS240 you can download from SxS card to disk in the
field and attach the disk via e-SATA. The hard disks are swappable and
the unit runs off the same batteries as the camera.

I thought it was just a re-wrap to access Sony MXF long GOP media on FCP
?

The Nano flash web site says;

Selectable Quality / Record Rates

So it appears they support both.

And they claim

Near Universal NLE Support

Rupert Watson

+44 7787 554 801

www.root6.com

From: FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shane Ross
Sent: 10 December 2009 09:03
To: FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

On Dec 10, 2009, at 12:10 AM, Rupert Watson wrote:

> If you are going to render to another i-frame codec for editing then
> why
> care if the acquisition codec is long gop mpeg2 of i-frame H.264?

-shane

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

On Dec 10, 2009, at 12:10 AM, Rupert Watson wrote:

> If you are going to render to another i-frame codec for editing then
> why
> care if the acquisition codec is long gop mpeg2 of i-frame H.264?

-shane

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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RE: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

The Nanoflash would be an alternative to the KiPro if you need something
other than ProRes

Rupert Watson

+44 7787 554 801

www.root6.com

From: FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rupert Watson
Sent: 10 December 2009 08:10
To: FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

Shane

If you are going to render to another i-frame codec for editing then why
care if the acquisition codec is long gop mpeg2 of i-frame H.264?

From my experience talking to people who know their compression stuff,
it appears to be generally held that 35Mbps long GOP MPEG2 will be the
same or better quality than the same footage shot at 100Mbps in i-frame
MPEG4. There are some who argue that to get really good looking i-frame
footage you need to go to 220 Mbps (which is a familiar number).

However, from a shooter's pov the fact that a 35Mbps camera uses less
power, records for longer per battery and stores more footage per MB
which can be easily edited natively (or converted to i-frame for longer
form editing) makes it a more attractive choice right about now.

Rupert Watson
+44 7787 554 801
www.root6.com

-----Original Message-----
From: FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:FinalCutPro-L%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:FinalCutPro-L%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Shane Ross
Sent: 09 December 2009 21:52
To: FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:FinalCutPro-L%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

A...yes, it shoots 24p. But people also like to shoot for slow motion.

Yeah, AVCI is difficult, but I don't deal with it natively. Either
transcode to ProRes, or to ProRes PROXY to offline, then batch to
ProRes when locked.

The KiPro is cool, but locks you to FCP. Someone contacted me
recently saying that they shot with that exact combination...EX1,
KiPro...with the intention to use the footage in an Avid.

Oops. They got an "F" on their homework assignment for that one.

-shane

On Dec 9, 2009, at 1:34 PM, oliverpetersvidy wrote:

> Shane,
>
> > Shane Ross wrote:
> > By ease of post, I mean working with an I-FRAME format instead of
> > GOP...because you can do things like ...
>
> While I agree in principle, I find that in actual practice I'm OK
> with EX and XDCAM-HD. No need to deal with reverse telecine, because
> the camera is 24p native. Really haven't had much of an issue. When
> you look at something like AVC-Intra, which is very computationally
> intensive, it's a real trade-off. The far more interesting and
> inviting option is to take SDI out of an EX and record to an
> external KiPro as ProRes.
>
> - Oliver
>
>
>

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RE: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

Shane

If you are going to render to another i-frame codec for editing then why
care if the acquisition codec is long gop mpeg2 of i-frame H.264?

Rupert Watson
+44 7787 554 801
www.root6.com

-----Original Message-----
From: FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shane Ross
Sent: 09 December 2009 21:52
To: FinalCutPro-L@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FCP-L] Re: Sony EX1R Post Workflow

A...yes, it shoots 24p. But people also like to shoot for slow motion.

Yeah, AVCI is difficult, but I don't deal with it natively. Either
transcode to ProRes, or to ProRes PROXY to offline, then batch to
ProRes when locked.

The KiPro is cool, but locks you to FCP. Someone contacted me
recently saying that they shot with that exact combination...EX1,
KiPro...with the intention to use the footage in an Avid.

Oops. They got an "F" on their homework assignment for that one.

-shane

On Dec 9, 2009, at 1:34 PM, oliverpetersvidy wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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